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7 years ago
Sustain 6168 views  
23
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Cybris
guest

Tab Master
[Tab Master]

15 Posts
What happened to the sustain? Just came back today and all of my tabs are sounding different, and by different i mean worse x3
 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
BA


Admin
[Admin]

337 Posts
@Cybris
We did recently make a significant change to the way midi files are created when we added multi-track/instrument ability. And some of the changes altered the way sustains work. It used to be that all notes would get cut off at the end of a staff line, that is no longer the case. But it is very possible that we inadvertently created a bug, butt we can fix if you can help us identify what the problem is.

How do your tabs sound worse? If you change the sustain setting to a lower value, do they sound better?

 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
Cybris
guest

Tab Master
[Tab Master]

15 Posts
From what i can hear while i have it on full sustain my notes, unlike what they used too do, cut off after they're played. eg 4|c>>>----| doesn't play the note c sustained across the whole measure, just the 4 beats it covers.

and testing it out while on full sustain just having a plain note eg 4|c-------| also doesn't fully sustain across the whole measure, it stops around half way.

and i think there's a problem with different notes played on the same line eg 4|cccdcccc| last i remember if there was a note after another note on the same line it would cut the sustain of the previous note off, but now the note 'd' in this example can still be heard sustained over the other c's after it.

i actually have saved .wav files of exactly what my old tabs sounded like, i could record what they sound like now and post them somewhere for a comparison if needed

 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
Cybris
guest

Tab Master
[Tab Master]

15 Posts
oh and sry to double post, but to add to that changing it from full sustain to any others doesn't seem to make any notable difference
 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
BA


Admin
[Admin]

337 Posts
Alright Cybris, I think the playback/sustain problems are fixed!

For example(s):

5|cd >>>>>
This no longer holds the c note through the d note (if they are both on the same line), and the sustains now work as they were supposed to.

5|c-c-----
5|-c------
This was causing all kinds of problems, they have all been fixed (hopefully)

This was a little more work than I thought it would be, but I solved a bunch of little problems in the process. Thanks for letting us know, hopefully this takes care of the issues you found, but if you find more let us know.

Thanks again!

 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
Cybris
guest

Tab Master
[Tab Master]

15 Posts
nice it sounds a whole heap better now, there is only a few more thing I'd pick at now. I use the angle brackets (>) to show exactly what notes are being played (ie crotchet, quaver) so it's easier to read, but it also cuts the note at the end of when it's played instead of letting it draw out like it used to. Which stops the notes from blending into each other, where normally if i need to stop the sustain of a note I'd just put a . at the end of it. eg

4|c>>>----| used to let the note fade out across the whole measure

4|c>>>.---| would cut the sound right after the note had been played

this presents a small problem on some of my full sustain songs, where i would have quick notes such as semi-quavers.

4|-c>>----| This now will cut the c note off while the b note continues to be
3|b-------| heard, which sounds odd in the middle of a tune


and while i was typing this and experimenting with tabs, i found there is still a small problem with the sustain of notes going over other notes on the same line as well as a problem with the sustain of notes carrying over lines. I heard there was something odd going on in one of my tabs, where it just sounded overly echoed when it shouldn't. play these 2 lines separately (one at a time) through the tab player with full sustain on:

2|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|D-A---A---A-F-A-|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|

3|----------------|----------------|--------D-------|----------------|
2|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|D-A---A---A-F-A-|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|

the first line is played just how it should be, though the addition of a line above it (as shown on the second line) makes the notes echo when they shouldn't.

now try playing these two lines one after another (at the same time) with full sustain on.

2|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|D-A---A---A-F-A-|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|

2|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|D-A---A---A-F-A-|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|

since they're the same line they should sound the same, but the carried over sustain from the previous line creates the same echo effect as the example I gave before.


other then those things I can still make my tabs sound decent enough by setting the sustain to 1-beat, but some sections of my tabs are supposed to be sustained and sound odd when they aren't. You did however fix a good portion of what was bugging me though, good work :3

 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
BA


Admin
[Admin]

337 Posts
Thanks again, Cybris. We'll get this right eventually (with your help)! In the first examples you provided, the notes are getting cut off immediately after the last ">" regardless of the sustain setting. Which is why the b in this example lasts longer than the c (assuming a longer sustain is set):
4|-c>>----| 
3|b-------|

If there is no ">" symbol after the note, then the default sustain is used, but if there are any ">" symbols, then the note is held only until the last ">" is found. Yes this is different from the way it used to work, and we could make it so that the ">" symbols only kick in after the default sustain is reached, but one benefit to this new approach is that it has the potential to simplify tab notation as it could replace the "." (staccato) symbols.

In addition to the above changes, the new ">" symbols have a new form of shorthand that can make the tabs a little easier to read:
Instead of writing:
5|c>>>>>>>>>>>b--------
you could write the same thing as:
5|c---------->b--------

The number of ">" symbols is no longer important, only the location of the last symbol on the line.

For the next example (trimmed a bit to highlight the differences):
2|D-A---A---A-F-A-|
vs:
3|--------D-------|
2|D-A---A---A-F-A-|

The 3|D note gets held over through the A (depending on the sustain amount) because it is on a different line than the rest of the notes. Was that your main point? We could change this behavior, but I think the old midi player did the same thing, and I'm not sure we should do this as there are many times when notes on one line are held while other notes are played.

For the last example:
2|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|

2|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|

As you pointed out, the last A on the first line gets sustained over the D in the second line. It functioned previously by stopping all notes at the end of the line, but that had the consequence of cutting off notes prematurely in some cases. So I'm not crazy about either approach, but in theory we could make the midi player a little smarter to know when the two lines are a continuation, this just gets tricky when there are multiple lines on the same octave.

Thanks again for the great feedback and I hope this helps explain our rationale (or lack of). Of course I welcome any questions or counterpoints.

 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
Cybris
guest

Tab Master
[Tab Master]

15 Posts
Alright i do see how you've gone about things, in my opinion the old way was better but i can make some adjustments. After replacing all the '>' and changing the instrument from bright piano to grand piano (since the grand piano doesn't have so much echo due to it being softer) it sounds decent enough. Though if the old midi player had the same echo effect it mustn't have been as noticeable as it is now (or somethings wrong with me x3), and i know it wouldn't be the easiest thing to identify continued lines over the same octave, but an option to disable the sustain from continuing over might be nice. Regardless the main addition i like is the ability to not only add new instruments but to have them playing in parallel. The only other thing i could think to add more after this would be to allow user inputted tempo since the default ones aren't always the ones i need, and maybe allow different tempo for different measures.

Anyways thank you for your time, it's great to know someone is actually reading these. I believe I've brought up all the points I've wanted to, and sry for any lack of proper terms which might've been able to be used to make things clearer; i only did 1 year of music x3.

 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
Tunder


Tab Guru
[Tab Guru]

135 Posts
nice tabs!! bit a pokemon fan? ;)

Well done, BA!

 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
Cybris
guest

Tab Master
[Tab Master]

15 Posts
Yeap i am a pokemon fan x3, and thx :3
 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
BA


Admin
[Admin]

337 Posts
I like the idea of being able to change the tempo (during the song), also changing the volume of a particular track. I was thinking of introducing the ability to write out commands that the midi player would recognize. Maybe something like:

<tempo=128>
or
SETTEMPO:128
or
TRACK:1
SETVOLUME:100

Not sure I like any of those formats actually, and it will take a bit to get those put in, but in the meantime, I've finally got the midi speed (bpm's) fully customizable! Enjoy, and please let me know any bugs you find!

 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
Tunder


Tab Guru
[Tab Guru]

135 Posts
maybe the rall-stuff, like most songs has in the outro.. ( like my rigby-tab )

I think having it like this will be all right ( this will be the "script" of the outro of my rigby-tab ) :
<tempo=175>
5|--------g-------|--------g-------|--------g-------|----------------|
4|d-----d-g-------|A---D-g-g-------|A---e-g-g-------|f---d-f-c-----c-|
4|----------------|g---------------|g---------------|d---------------|
4|----------------|D---------------|e---------------|----------------|
3|A-g-A-----------|D-A-------------|e-A-------------|A-A-----a-f-a---|
3|g---------------|----------------|----------------|--------f-------|
2|g---------------|----------------|----------------|A-------f-------|


5|--------g-------|--------g-------|--------g-------|----------------|
4|d-----d-g-------|A---D-g-g-------|A---e-g-g-------|f---d-f-c-----c-|
4|----------------|g---------------|g---------------|d---------------|
4|----------------|D---------------|e---------------|----------------|
3|A-g-A-----------|D-A-------------|e-A-------------|A-A-----a-f-a---|
3|g---------------|----------------|----------------|--------f-------|
2|g---------------|----------------|----------------|A-------f-------|


<rall=175>-------------------------------------------------</rall=100>
4|d-----d-g-d-----|A---D-g-A-g-D---|A---e-g-A-g-e---|f---d-f-c-----c-|
4|----------------|g---------------|g---------------|d---------------|
4|----------------|D---------------|e---------------|----------------|
3|A-g-A-------A-g-|D-A-----------A-|e-A-----------A-|A-A-----a-f-a---|
3|g---------------|----------------|----------------|--------f-------|
2|g---------------|----------------|----------------|A-------f-------|


I don't know if it's possible to do it like that..

That said: the possibility of exact BPM is a great update!!

a possibility to have 2 different stuff ( for beginner tabbers and for advanced tabbers ) is also a good idea, imo..

where the "advanced" tabs have those lines i made in the tab showed up.
and the "beginner" tabs only have the BPM-choice at the start.

 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
Cybris
guest

Tab Master
[Tab Master]

15 Posts
nice, just updated a few of my tabs that i could remember needed a tempo change and I'll change the rest as i find them. as for notation for tempo changes within the tab i'm not sure :/

maybe something like this could work?
T|142-------------|175---096-------|142-------------|090-------------|
4|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|D-A---A-G-A-F-A-|

 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
Tunder


Tab Guru
[Tab Guru]

135 Posts
that could be possible, exept...

when you have a rall ( like in most outro's ) how do you solve that?

also: a T could be comfusing when you use guitar tabs..

 
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7 years ago
Re: Sustain
Cybris
guest

Tab Master
[Tab Master]

15 Posts
oh i didn't see how your tempo slowly goes down, yeah the way i suggested would be bad for that and may be confusing.. oh wells x3
 
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6 years ago
Re: Sustain
teeowe


Tab Guru
[Tab Guru]

16 Posts
I have to say I despise the default sustain concept. It makes tabbing much more difficult. If I have a line with b---, it should be the same as b.-- not b>>>...
 
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6 years ago
Re: Sustain
BA


Admin
[Admin]

337 Posts
@teeowe

When you change the sustain setting to 1 beat, it behaves as you prefer. Are you requesting that the default sustain setting be set to 1 when submitting a new tab? I think the current default is "full sustain".

 
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6 years ago
Re: Sustain
Tunder


Tab Guru
[Tab Guru]

135 Posts
that's a good idea, BA!

I don't like the new sustain things either..

 
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6 years ago
Re: Sustain
BA


Admin
[Admin]

337 Posts
:O Tunder what don't you like about the new sustain?
 
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6 years ago
Re: Sustain
Tunder


Tab Guru
[Tab Guru]

135 Posts
i didn't like the full sustain ;)

I hope all old tabs still have 0 sustain, cuz im too busy / lazy to change "all" my tabs ;)

 
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6 years ago
Re: Sustain
BA


Admin
[Admin]

337 Posts
We've changed the default sustain setting to 6 (I think that's what the old version was). Sound good? I thought so.
 
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6 years ago
Re: Sustain
BA


Admin
[Admin]

337 Posts
Volume commands are in! http://tabnabber.com/FORUM2/display_message.as...
 
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6 years ago
Re: Sustain
Cybris
guest

Tab Master
[Tab Master]

15 Posts
yays~ ^^
 
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6 years ago
Re: Sustain
Tunder


Tab Guru
[Tab Guru]

135 Posts
awesome!
 
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